Category: News and Views
It's probably just as well I'm no longer living in Florida & not thinking of going back as much as I once was.
Anyone hear about this knucklehead pastor in southern Florida who wants to burn Qu'rans I guess to symbolize his hatred for Islam? In spite of the fact he's been warned it may jeapordize American military operations overseas?
It's been awhile since I've been observant. I can't see the point of accepting a religion, whether it's Christianity, or Islam, if it means putting down the beliefs of others. While I'm not in favor of left wingers wanting to adapt U S laws to please those outside the U S...for example those senators who spoke against capital punishment for those who were under 18 when they committed their crimes...I am not in favor either of the new right wing "do it like other countries". This mind set, one example is those who say "We shouldn't allow the mosque near Ground Zero to go up until Saudi Arabia permits the building of a church." ?!?! Why should I lower my standards to match Saudi law? Do these folks know women are executed by stoning under Saudi law? Should we do that, too, until they relent? I'm not in support of Muslims who put down & make fun of everyone else, but I am also not in favor of this pastor or his desire to burn others' holy book.
This makes me so angry! how dare someone claim the name of Jesus and act with pure hate like this!
To Post 2, my wife would agree with you on that score.
I have to say, though, that I think fundamentalists like this are nothing short of a national security risk. This is a very very selfish act, which can cost lives needlessly. If it were me, I'd make these people responsible for the deaths of soldiers overseas. These are very dangerous people. While I appreciate the previous poster's and my wife's perspective, the truth is there is also a national security issue here. This individual is obviously trying to incite terrorism, just as bad as selling top information to insurgents in Afghanistan or somewhere.
This particular numbnuts needs to do a stretch at the Lovenworth Hotel as far as I'm concerned.
Leo, I never looked at it that way.
While I might be considered a fundamentalist by some, this type of thing makes all Christians look bad, not to mention the security risk. While I don't agree with many of the beliefs of islam, they have a right to live and worship in this country (in my case, Canada).
I don't think I'd have it in me to do it but I wouldn't be too broken up if someone went down there and put a bullet in this Pastor's brain. And if our fears turn out to be justified I hope someone does do for him. Because mark my words it's not only raddical Islam extremists that are and are going to be pissed by this. It's pissed off the more moderate members of that faith who would probably under ordinary circumstances be little different from you and I aside from beliefs. And it's things like this Pastor that have turned me off to organized religion over the years. Because each religion can't and doesn't respect the others. I've heard that this guy in the past has said that Hinduism, Judaism and Islam are all of the devil. Well regardless of how you feel about Islam, this country does claim to practice freedom of religion. But I agree he's hardly worth of the title of Pastor if he'll stoop to destroying another religion's holy text or any other holy object of any kind. So it's all right for us to destroy copies of the Koran and they can't say anything, yet we can do whatever we want to them if they destroy copies of the Bible? I'm sorry, but things like that piss me off. No religion is superior to another, just as no race is superior to another.
Musician, I agree with you. I too am a Christian, and this makes us all look terrible. I definitely do not support what Jones is doing, and I certainly can't stand that he's claiming to do it in the name of Christ! All I can think is that, someday God will call him to account for this act, and for the way he is misusing his position of leadership in his church.
Yes, Leo, also agree that Jones is going to bring down a rain of trouble where security is concerned. However, in doing so, he will only prove the point that many Muslims are trying to refute: that their reaction to this will be extreme. As a Christian, I would be upset if someone decided to burn Bibles, but I could not argue with their right to do so.
Which leads me to my last point, and this is where people will probably get mad at me, but I'm going to say it anyway. In my opinion, anyone who supports the ground 0 mosque is a hypocrite if they get mad at this guy in Florida. Those supporting the mosque are mostly doing so on the grounds of this country's freedom of religion. I can't stand Jone's planned action, but it can't logically be denied that he is also within his right under that same freedom of religion. However, I guarantee you that those arguing for one group's religious freedom would love to see Jones's rights taken away.
people need to put this into persepctive though.
just like many people need to understand that the muslims who destroyed the pentabon and twin towers and killed so many people were a minority extremest faction who had no right to represent the views of the entire muslim world, this individual with his 50 followers has no right to represent christianity.
get it into perspective people, and the smartest and probably most annoying thing to him, would be to totally ignore him and his idiocy.
SisterDawn, I agree with your final point. I believe that the Park 51 Project and the Burn a Koran Day are both provocative, insensitive and offensive. I am saddened and worried by the current trend of politicians, which seems to be to choose between competing groups of extremists. Politicians should show leadership by not associating themselves with people who are or who have links to extremists, and consistently condemning Islamic and Islamophobic extremism.
There are other offensive things happening on Saturday, including a gathering of 9/11 conspiracy theorists in New York. Those extremists should also be condemned by politicians all over the world.
Politicians seem to be more concerned about the sensitivities of Muslims than of everybody else. Last year, there was a Bible Burning in North Carolina, about which there was a thread on the Zone. Politicians didn't respond as they have to the Koran burning, even though both books are considered holy.
A Bible Burning could also be considered a National Security risk. It has the potential of inciting Christian terrorists the same way that a Qu'ran burning incites Muslim terrorists.At the time of the Bible Burning I was not that familiar with this site, hence my writing on this topic could appear one-sided. And no terrorist or terrorist-inciting group is representative of that religion. While I've been back and forth on the Mosque issue - mostly because of the wolf-cryers who brought it to our attention in the news, I tend to concur with SisterDawn and Senior.
Frankly and I realize this is controversial to some, I wish they had gone ahead and built a new economic center - even if it weren't a World Trade Center - on the very spot. Terrorists hate white noise and dark silence. George W. Bush took criticism for telling people to go ahead and go shopping - just as he took criticism for calling Islam a religion of peace.
However what he said by the shopping comment was really tantamount to: Go ahead and continue to do exactly what the terrorists tried to prevent you from doing, because if you're not terrified the terrorists lost. Go ahead and support the economies that support local and international businesses, because when people can feed their families terrorists have far less of a foothold. Discontent is a terrorist's fertilizer for recruits.
On the conspiracy theorists, I don't know yet but certainly they are pretty marginalized. The 9/11 Patriots Day survivors have continued on with their lives. While they were victims when the airplanes hit, they're survivors. They survived descending 30+ floors in black smoke, survived the first few months after the trauma and have subsequently survived nine years. I eqully don't like the 9/11 trump card played by politicians. These people have relocated, admirably handled the situation, and frankly shown a lot of guts. They are and were disaster survivors, and I wish neither side would trademark 9/11 and use it as a trump card. The politicians are playing the victim from their penthouse apartments, not the survivors who reconstructed their lives brick by brick.
I just caught a news report in passing saying some Muslim groups in parts of the world want to burn American flags because of this situation and they're saying their usual "down with America" thing. I honestly am unaware of how most people are reacting to this situation outside of this thread. Do most people support the Koran burning? I don't listen to right wing clown talk radio so not sure if any of those folks are in support of it either. Anyhow, looks like we're all taking the blame for this one just for being American. Religion and politics, ain't they grand?
A friend of my husband's is taking this one step further and is supporting a movement called "Buy a Quran day". Basically, people buy a Quran on September 11. I think it's kind of dumb myself, but can't we have a little moderation, people?
I think I will burn an american flagg on saturday as well. maybe burn a bible and Quran right along with it.
I challenge any muslem to do the same, burn all 3 in your country and let me know how it goes for you!
I'm no ra-ra-ra- type guy, but on flag burning: A little-known fact, the burning of the flag was until very recently the ceremonial and respectful method of disposal. Goes with 'don't let the flag touch the ground', how it is to be folded and the like.
Groups right and left have disregarded this.
I'm honesly not into ANY book burning. I think it shows incredible childnishness, a "my way or the highway" type attitude. The '60's passed ages ago, so unless it's respectful disposal of a tattered, worn flag, I can't get excited about burning a flag, either. Although the way some groups act where I live I have been tempted on multiple occasions to buy flags of those nations & use 'em as bath mats or door welcome mats.
hmmmm, didn't know that Leo.
gee, I'm all out of toilet paper. hummm. grin
Very few people who I have heard in the media, whether they're officials or the audience support the Koran burning. Very few people whose thoughts I have read across the internet support it.
One thing that makes me uncomfortable, which we're seeing with this issue and the Park 51 Project, is politicians and Muslims effectively saying "if you don't agree with us, US lives will be lost".
That's the argument of US politicians and generals against the Koran burning. Feisal Abdul Rauf has said that if the Park 51 Project relocates, Islamic extremists may use the relocation of the project to justify killing Americans.
I also disagreeing with labeling people with opposing views. The current tactics discourage open debate and seek to silence opposition. I wouldn't expect that from the country that prides itself on being the land of the free.
While I'm not a religious person by any means, I don't think this is right. This is, in a way, going back to the days of the crusades. Okay, not as major, but the meaning is the same. For those of you who are religious, answer this: If God is the one true God who loves everyone, wouldn't he disapprove of this kind of behavior, even if the person in question is doing this in the name of Jesus, as he claims?
This, my friends, is why I really don't like extremists of any faith. If you want to practice a religion, go right ahead, but don't jeopardize other people's work because your religion doesn't approve of it.
Ocean, I'm certainly not one to speak for God, I can only say what I believe. And yes, I think you are correct: I do believe that God does disapprove of this type of behavior. However, we are humans and have our free will, and God does not stop everyything that He disapproves of. OK, now this is getting into the religious sector, so I'll say no more on that particular idea.
Like you Sponge, I think burning books, no matter what they are, is a lousy way of handling a situation. It really does not serve a purpose, in my opinion. People burning books and the like are generally trying to make some kind of statement, and I'd say in all the cases that I can think of, there are far more effective ways to make the same statement.
Seems this is now an off, on again, process.
Florida pastor says he's 'rethinking" canceled Quran burning
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/09/florida.quran.burning/index.html
when in doubt, burn something....
draftees used to burn their draft cards and american flags, and now people are burning books to prove a point.
Personally, I don't care if people burn a flag, because it's just a symbol. I'm not patriotic, and if anyone wants to burn an aussie flag that they've bought then that's fine by me, it's their money.
but books are knowledge and there's something more precious about them.
now I don't blame the muslims who dwell in war torn countries for thinking that this is the atitude of people in the USA, considering the stories that come out of both the USA and the terrorist holding facility...
so I can understand why these politicians are worried.
I'm against burning of any book if you're doing it to prove a point. Not sure about flag-burning, but as I think of it, are there not ways you can effectively prove your point without being destructive?
Crowds / fires / hyped up emotions tend to equal a toxic and destructive combination. Anyone hear of a peaceful burning? The Alabama book burnings of the 1960s were anything but peaceful.
The dude said he's not going to do it anymore. I think something finally got into his head.
First he said he was, then he said he wasn't... I don't believe a word he says
FIrst he said he wasn't, then he said he was "rethinking his plans to cancel the event." Event, for god's sake. I agree with CM. I don't trust the son of a bitch. Pardon my language but I actually thought of using something far less friendly. All I can say is that if he does go through with it and there's an upswing in violence against Americans over there or even another terrorist attack as a result I sincerely hope somebody puts a bullet in his brain or better yet tortures him for an extended period beforehand. I don't condone Muslims' burning of the bible but stooping to their level isn't going to solve anything and in fact is probably only going to make things worse.
I think we'll get a final decision tonight. If he is flown to see Feisal Abdul Rauf in New York, he won't burn Korans tomorrow. If he isn't, the Koran burning will probably go ahead. The Westboro Baptist church is burning Korans tomorrow, and I think that if people feel that Terry Jones has been pressured into not burning Korans, they may burn Korans to show that they aren't going to be intimidated and silence. If every time that happens the response of Islamic extremists is violence, and the cycle spreads and grows, the world will become more dangerous and less civilised.
My opinion is that the right to freedom of speech outweighs any other considerations, and as long as this pastor is not harming anyone, or telling others to harm anyone, he should be allowed to go ahead. If Muslims riot and kill people in response then this is an indictment on Islam and its standards of morality, not on the pastor of a tiny Florida church. Nothing should be above criticism, especially powerful and influential movements like Islam, with its apparently dark age mentality. It should be up to Muslims now to show restraint, to disprove all the stereotypes. Not all Muslims are bad people, but so far Islam has done nothing whatsoever to dispel our legitimate fears of its actions and intentions.
Maybe somebody can help me clarify something. What is the point of this Quran burning? I mean, outside of the destruction of a holy book, what else is it supposed to achieve? If it's just an expression of "I hate Islam" my reaction is, "OK, but why should I care what you hate, and is your hate going to stop or end it?"
Right to freedom of speech? Oh yeah, like shouting 'fire' in a theater.
This isn't a religious issue: It's a terrorist issue / he knows full well it will incite terrorists.
I find it interesting that the only other burning topic - that being the burning of Bibles - was a competing group within his own faith.
Putting our military service people in deliberate and needless harm's way and doing so under the guise of freedom of speech is one way to make fun of freedom of speech / the first ten amendments / the whole Constitution.
Dammit, Leo, you're making the idea of the game reserve or whatever you call it for extremists to be a more and more attractive option.
The point of it is that the Dove World Outreach Centre believes Islam is of the Devil. The reason it is such a big issue is that supporters of the Park 51 Project want to create the impression that Terry Jones represents all those who oppose the project. However, Islamic extremists have used this story and it has grown out of control. It is not a weapon any more; it is a separate issue. It is so big, that it no longer matters whether or not the Koran burning takes place. The idea has outgrown the act.
The point of the COran burning as stated by Jones is to send a warning to raddical Islamic extremists. I'm all for warning them tat we won't stand for terrorist attacks against our country for anyr eason regardless of religious views. But burning the Islamic sacred texts isn't going to piss off only the extremists. It's going to and has already infuriated many Islamic folks who might otherwise have had no beef with us despite our differing views. It's unfortunate that a small number of raddicals have made the entire religion look bad, but the same could be said of Christianity or any other religion. And to clarify, Jones basically said that any non Christian religion was of the devil. He just specifically named Hinduism, Judaism and yes, Islam. And to be perfectly frank it's behavior like this over a variety of issues that's turned me off to organized religion over the years. But I do agree it probably doesn't matter anymore whether the Koran burning takes place tomorrow or not. The flames have already been set alight and fanned out of all proportion.
Amen to all you said, Arden. You put, in better words, what I was trying to say in my original post. I don't agree with this guy, but he does have the right to do this. And, yes, if the Islamic community lashes out in acts of terrorism, they are only proving themselves to be all their opponents think them.
Anybody else feel like we're heading in the direction of a World War III, maybe even another Civil War? That's certainly the feeling i've been getting.
Probably even both at the same time. The current attitude of Western leaders towards Islam reminds me very closely of the appeasement of the 1930s, when the leaders of the Western democracies bent over backwards to accomodate every single one of Hitler's demands, no matter how unreasonable, simply in order to avoid war. And yet war still came, and all appeasement really achieved was that Hitler saw us as weak. I believe the same is happening now.
I think you could be right.
Another thing I find especially disgraceful about the current climate is that it's impossible to criticise Islam without being branded a racist or a bigot. In a free society nothing should be above criticism, and Islam has some pretty appalling aspects to it, such as its treatment of women, its barbaric legal system, and its inbuilt propensity for violence.
I am a new believer in Jesus and though a lot of people will prob say oh you are a jesus freak All of this is in the bible as the end times. Sooner than we think the rapture of the church will happen. Now let me move on and say no I do not support Islam at all but I do not under any circumstances approve of what this man wants to do. He has no idea what this will start all over the nation and that this gives christians an even more bad name.
Not just all over the nation but all over the world. And while I do agree that certain aspects of Islam are peculiar to me and even abhorrant I still in no way approve of acts such as what Terry Jones is planning. As I said I think it's going to spark another World War, not that we haven't been heading in that direction for years. And that's not even including the risk of another Civil War on our own soil for a variety of reasons.
There's a difference between opposing Islamic extremism and hating Muslims or demonising people because they are Muslims. Opposing Islamic extremism in all its forms doesn't make people bigots or Islamophobic. Hating people or demonising all Muslims does.
In other news, a Muslim in South Africa's plans to burnBibles in response to the Koran burning was blocked by a court. I disagree with that decision. Though I don't agree with his protest, he should be free to burn Bibles if that's what he wants to do.
While I agree that not all Muslims are bad, those who choose not to be bad are deliberately ignoring the commands of their prophet, who told his followers to kill unbelievers. For this reason the presence of Islam will always cause problems in any society, because some Muslims will always be radicalised, and a large number of those who aren't will give tacit support to the radicals.
This is why I have grown so cynical about organized religion. I do believe in a creator, but what's the point of worshipping with a group if people demonize someone else's beliefs? What exactly is the point?! Who cares?!
If I'm interested in Catholicism or Hare Krishna, I am not going to attend a mass or visit a temple to hear another group demonized. I'm interested, so I would go to such a place to find out hey? What does Roman Catholicism have to teach? What does Krishna conscious have to teach the individual about monotheism or treatment of one's fellow man? I have no desire to hear the Reverend Terry Jones or anyone else villainize Islam or someone else.
I completely agree with Spongebob. That's exactly why I've grown so synical towards organized religion over the years. They can't just live and let live. As for those Muslims who are "disobeying the commands of their profit," they have free will just as much as the rest of us. And just because their profit may have told his followers to kill unbelievers doesn't mean God would in fact approve. Muslims can twist the words of their god and their holy books just as much as some so-called Christians can.
The Koran doesn't tell Muslims to indiscriminately kill unbelievers. Muslims should only kill unbelievers in a war situation in which the unbelievers are trying to kill the Muslims, and even then, they should only kill the unbelievers who are trying to kill the Muslims.
The only major conflict which may be described as a war of religion, is that between Israel and Palestine. The Koran says God will help the Muslims, so the fact he hasn't so far suggests Muslims must have deviated from the teachings of the Koran. Perhaps they set up idols such as Mohammad beside God. Perhaps they follow other guidance even though the Koran says it is perfect and warns against following other guidance. Perhaps Muslims have not been equitable in their dealings with people of other religions, such as Sikhs in Punjab, and Christians in Saudi Arabia and other countries.
Oh, boy, the "Reverend" Jones now has two civilian dead in Afghanistan to at least think about. Wonder if he'll sleep O K at night.
That's another thing that ticks me about some folks who call themselves religious: selective practice. Isn't there a part of the New Testament in which Jesus admonishes the disciples to turn away from the one who isn't interested and go out into the community until they find someone who is interested in the message God gives through Jesus? I don't recall anything about book burning or namecalling. Isn't there another part of the New Testament that speaks of the Pagans who live God's teachings having better standing in his eyes than those who preach but don't live the teachings?
I know Catholic women who scorn divorced adults, are nasty about families with no children or with one child, yet are militant about wanting unfettered abortion rights. ?! Doesn't the Roman Catholic church teach the sacredness of all human life, even against the death penalty?! Muslim women I know revealed themselves to me when Mimi was born. Oh sure they get in hijab and shout Allah's praises, but were encouraging me to take from a food voucher program for the truly needy (the Qu'ran has any number of surahs that warn against taking money, property, food away from widows, orphans, and the truly needy). I know of one public housing complex I would say has 50% noncitizen Muslim residents, yet they always seem to have money to travel overseas. Oh, gee, do you suppose these pious people might be taking an apartment away from a battered woman trying to get away from her spouse? Or an elderly citizen priced out of his or her apartment? Oh, but they can pray 5+ times a day and "Allahu akbar" you until you're blue in the face.
Another thing that has me fed up is the politicization of religion. You have to support Israel unless you're Orthodox or Reconstructionist Jew, you have to vote the "Christian Right" in power if you're Christian, you had to vote for Obama because he supported the exit from Iraq: to Hell with that, I voted for John McCain. Anyone see the CNN "God's Warriors" specials, profiling Jewish, Christian, & Muslim conservatives? Well, the Christian made a fan of me, forget that Reverend's name. He is regarded by the Christian Right as an "infidel", which literally means "disloyal". He said with religion & politics hopelessly intertwined in marriage, he wanted a divorce. He felt Jesus was decidedly neutral on the issues of his day, & that if Christians wanted a foothold in politics, they had to come up with some issues besides an antiabortion & anti homosexual agenda. "Does homosexuality go against the teachings of the Bible? Sure, but so do gluttony, greed,"...etc. He cited one reason for choosing abortion as poverty, wondering if someone who is truly pro-life should come up with some ideas to fight poverty. I am a fan of that guy, not the Reverends Terry Jones, Franklin Graham, the late Jerry Falwell or any of their ilk.
Then I suppose it doesn't matter that he apparently didn't go through with the burning at least from what I've heard. Evidently his threats were enough. But I agree with Senior. I've enver read the Koran but I always imagined it said kill unbelievers who are trying to kill them. But if Muslims have deviated by setting up idols of their profit beside god then they're really no different from a lot of so-called Christians I've known. As for the Civilians I hate to say it but I imagine Jones is still sleeping OK since in his words he didn't expect the burning to lead to violence. Of course he may have just been like that idiot family in Colorado either last year or earlier this year who wasted lots of money and resources claiming their baby son got carried off in an unmanned hot air balloon when he was in fact safe in the attic at home the whole time. And I recall at least the father admitting it was an attention-getting thing. This Reverend Jones may just have been like that, although admittedly the consequences are likely to be far more devastating as a result of this particular stunt.
If a minister set up shop in Gainesville, he just might have to attention whore to draw attention onto his church. Gainesville, Florida is largely a college town, specifically the University of Florida is the main attraction. When I was in high school, many students wanted to attend UF. For the rigorous academics? Perhaps law, medical, or divinity school? No, it's largely reputed to be a party school. It has some well reputed sports teams, like the Gainesville Gators football team and a womens' gymnastics team, but unless you're there on scholarship playing a sport, "partying" may be all you have in mind, and that's why I didn't want to attend there. UF or anywhere, how many truly religious college students does anyone here know? Most of the ones that come to my mind are largely secular young men & women, perhaps living away from home for the first time, enjoying the party scene in between classes & homework. Sure we had some Christian student with their own little group, and they were pretty high achievers academically, but they were in the minority of my small private college.
CrazyMusician I concurre with your statement at your first post. I am a new LDS member and to say your going to burn someones book of beliefs because your ticked off is so not right. To make matters wurse Jesus Christ gets dragged into it. What a revolting statement, and move.
Individuals have burned Korans, word has reached some Muslims, and they have protested. The very idea that a Koran could be burned has had such an impact, that burning Korans couldn't have achieved much more than the idea.
Of course, the people who are to blame for the violence are the people who have responded violently to the Koran burning, not the Koran burners. Muslims should take responsibility for their actions, like everybody else.
True...you don't see Christian fundamentalists responding to Bible burning in such a manner. How many Buddhists responded to the Taliban destroying historical statues in Afghanistan with violence?
On the other hand, when I was still in the single digit years my mom taught me "Never make fun of another human being's religious beliefs, no matter how strange they may seem to you. At best you've lost a potential friend. At worst you may lose your life." Some of these folks engaged in prophet caricatures & scripture burning are, at least supposed to be, grown people. That's a sad commentary on modern society.
sad commentary on society as a whole, modern or primitive. These preachers and clerics are simply the village witch doctors, no more no less.
New Jersey Transit has sacked the man who burned a Koran outside Park 51. He was off duty. Would he have been sacked if he burned an American flag?
Well, I couldn't read all of the postings on this topic but, still let me express my opinion in a general manner.
Actually in USA when the congress wanted to pass a law about burning of american flags in protests, president, (might be Bush, how ironic) denied it saying that this would remove American people's right of free speach. Why would an American burn their own flag? let me point out that, compatriotism and nationalism, also radicalism are all different things.
When an American flag is burned by an American citizen, most of people know that it is a democratic reaction, commited by a compatriot. This is where a compatriot and a nationalist differ, a nationalist wouldn't want their nation to be associated with a single dirt on its name, on the other hand a compatriot would want to wash away any dirt whatsoever. So I answer my own question in this way: An American would burn their own flag just because to express his or her opinion in a stronger manner, to get it heard by administration. "hey, there's a problem up here and if you don't want this flag burned then watch out your step!"
Radicalism is a completely different story. I had written an essay on American-Arabian relations in this summer, and in my search I found some useful articles on "der Spiegel" which casted light on the matter very well; an ambasador of UAE states that nearly all of arabian countries colaborate with USA, especially on topics like Iran's nucleer program etc.
Given that rich countries like UAE and Saudi Arabia support USA in the middle east, it should be also understood that Al-kaida and other radical islamist organizations also object to the American existance in middle east and they hate states who allow American existance in their teratories: Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, Turkey etc.
The fact that these countries are not a target for such organizations should not be misinterpreted: They hate governers of these countries because in their opinion, those governers were "planted" by USA's hand.
Countries around Arabian peninsula are usually in a strict islam rule, however as long as people of these countries are concerned I should ask one more question: Why would they want to lose American partnership when they are in a win-win relation with USA? United states is at the moment the biggest buyer of Arabian petrol; while USA is able to buy petrol cheaper than it might otherwise, Arabian countries became rich just selling this asset. So even though they don't have to love Americans, they would not want to inflict any damage either.
Returning to Koran burning, I find it unreasonable because it's not a reaction to the radical islamist organizations. Because the perception that these organizations represent moslim society in general is wrong even for the simplest reason above.
Although I am an atheist, I don't think burning of Koran givves any message to anyone except moslim society, except "we hate you!"
Burning of flag is a message that target of which is clear, while Burning of Koran is a message target of which is a mass of people and can be at best described as unclear.
This is an interesting thread. I don't agree with burning anyone's sacred books, though I might censor those which insight pure hatred and violence without any logic behind them. I never thought of the security risk angle, being that I don't really pay attention to the U.S. military etc. but I do know that there were (and probably still are) Greek troops in Afghanistan in their airports. They're not on a combat mission, but rather, are there to keep the peace. If violence erupts, however, they certainly won't be spaired and neither will anyone else for that matter. What really worries me is the civilians getting killed for revenge. I don't think that this is about rights so much as instigating a riot, some kind of major reaction that could ultimately lead to something horrible and unforseen. So I'd have them arrested just as I'd have people burning The Bible arrested. But that is an interesting point, that only the crimes against Muslims are getting major coverage. I can't vouge for it, as I don't read news outside of Greece, but if it's true, then there are alot of serious hypocrits out there. I doubt, for example, that anyone would raise a fuss if people began burning books of Homer or Hesiod, and yet, these are sacred as well. Then again, no one has a reason to burn those. I also think that it's one thing to act on your own vollition, to say "I don't like this set of circumstances so am doing something about it" and quite another to try and insist that this is what a particular deity would want. No one truly knows the minds of The Gods, no matter what religion they're from, and I think it's foolish not to mention sacreligious to assume that we as mortals can speak for Them. If the point of this burning is to warn terrorists, it's a very stupid way of doing it. It's like telling someone who's angry not to fight you by punching them. The only thing it would lead to is them retaliating, perhaps rightfully so, though their reaction, of course, won't be anything as peaceful as merely burning a few Christian texts. And that's where the problem lies.
As much as I don't like America, I don't think I'd burn their flag. I can't necessarily say that for countries whom I truly consider enemies, but I think that if a country isn't causing any harm in the present, they and their flag should be respected as a matter of curtacy. Personally, if I knew of someone burning a Greek flag, in protest, I'd beat the shit out of them in plain English. I don't care if it's their right or not. It's not something that I could sit around and tolerate. So there's a perfect demonstration of how someone who's usually peaceful could lash out against an act that she finds so offensive that it motivates her to set things right. I don't care what the government does. I'd rather cut my hand off than burn a Hellenic flag, unless it was specifically written down as a reverent means of disposal of a ruined one, and even then, I'm not sure that I could do it. Flags are alot more than just symbols or pieces of cloth or canvus.
I've often thought that we're heading for another world war and the idea is terrifying, especially as 2012 approaches. I don't know about America, though I have vaguely heard that some states want to secede, but I have the sickening feeling that Greece is headed for another civil war or a revolution of the people. I pray with all my heart and soul that neither of these happen. But a world war, of course, would eclipse all of that, and while it may unite us, the blood shed and the lives lost will be a terrible price to pay. Good point about appeasment. I never thought of that, but Gods, you're right! I'm very glad to hear about this Muslim's actions being stopped in South Africa. Now if more people could get on the ball with these types of things, perhaps there's a tiny chance of a war being averted.
As a Hellenic Polytheist, I can't understand this hatred of other religions to the point of burning sacred texts, killing people of other faiths or creating such hatred that your followers will do so. I'm also interested in that part about pagans in The New Testament. I've never heard of us spoken of in such good terms in that book and it really made me smile. I guess the Christians who killed the pagans in ancient times glossed right over that part. Wow! Way to go for that Christian! It's about time that more of them get their heads out of the sand and stop putting down abortion and homosexuals. And he's right wing? I'm amazed to say the very least. I'm also very glad to hear about the man in NJ, especially considering that I live here. Maybe there's still some hope after all!
Well Reverend Jones apparently said in an interview that the reason he ultimately didn't burn the Koran was that the point he was trying to make had already been made simply via his threats to do so, that Islam has a raddical element. So does Christianity and probably every other religion out there. This is something we already knew. And the fact that he ultimately didn't go through with the burning more than likely isn't going to matter to the raddicals.
Randall Terry has arranged for Korans to be destroyed in New York and DC on October 6/7. Meanwhile in Gateshead (England), six people have been arrested for inciting racial hatred after they burned Korans on September 11th. On the same day, Islamic extremists burned American flags in London. They haven't been arrested.
It's nice to know this is what grown people are reduced to, book & flag burning...retarded retarded retarded.
Well, who could blame them? Granted, it's not the most efficient or intelligent means of getting the point across, but we're not dealing with those Muslims who kept scientific thought, literature and all of that alive during the Middle Ages. So long as they don't actually hurt anyone, I could understand the anger and the response.